Why I am still skeptical about Hive: Response to "How Steem Became Hive" by lukestokes

This post is my response to the recent article How Steem Became Hive by @lukestokes, to show that where we do not agree and to find out how to facilitate potential discussion to go forward.

It will be posted both in Steem and Hive.

Before I begin, let me emphasized the following points first:

  1. I respect lukestokes a lot.
    While the only interaction with him is exchanging replies several times and reading his articles recently (so I won't be surprised that he does not really know me), I believe that he is one of the, if not most, considerate and reasonable witnesses and I would love to discuss and share views with him any time. In fact, even after him shutting down his steem witness node, I still vote for him as a sign of respect.

  2. I am writing this to fill the gap and move forward, if possible.
    That being said, I am not writing this to argue that one side is perfect and the other side is evil - it is more like a situation both sides did something wrong and two wrongs don't make it right. Since it seems that users with different opinions are scared of saying so, I decide to write a dark side of Hive. I do know that there also is a dark side of Steem Inc (or Justin), but I am pretty sure you have read thousands of them so I would skip here.

  3. I will focus on the core understanding differences on two main issues,
    as most of the topics are discussed in many ways already.

For the rest of the article, I will mainly use quotes from the luke's article (quoted and used the numbers from the original article, like ". 14. ") to start and put my views below.

1. It is 22.2 witnesses who initiated the attack (and changed their words)

Many users, including myself, became skeptical in supporting most 22.2 witnesses (most of them are the current Hive top witnesses) because

  1. They changed their words.

  2. They took someone's money first.

In January 2019, lots of witnesses publicly wrote that they will not touch Steem Inc. accounts.

. 2. The community is constantly frustrated with Steemit over the use of this stake with some even threatening to null out the keys for it last year. I and other witnesses stated plainly we will not do that. Example: https://steempeak.com/stopthepowerdown/@lukestokes/is-steem-centrally-controlled

I was not familiar with this matter, so I read the article and related links. In short, Ned was powering down steemit account as he feared that witnesses would fork his account out, and witnesses wanted to persuade him that they will not do such action.

For example, luke wrote

"I will not implement, support, or condone any hard fork that effects the balances, keys, or security of any accounts on the current chain," and

@therealwolf wrote (https://steempeak.com/statement/@therealwolf/public-witness-statement-therealwolf)

"I will not support any fork that is trying to alter/remove the balance/keys/stake of Steemit Inc. on the main-chain STEEM!"

It seems that other witnesses wrote something similar.

And this event, soft fork 22.2, comes, and everything changed.

. 8. Soft fork 22.2 freezes the ninja mined stake, prevents it from being powered down or participating in governance. It's an easily reversible code change and not a theft or ransom. All token balances are intact.

Let alone that there was not a single word of public "community discussion" before the actual fork.

  • If you were one of these "normal" users(like me) who did not know about this, make sure to check whether you really think people who made such decision would treat you as a community member.

Focusing on what happened: I still do not understand how one can think of this as "not a theft or ransom". This is clearly taking someone's asset as a hostage and asking for a random, at best.

Let me use an analogy of a reply to the 22.2 fork (I forgot who wrote this).

Andy took Bob's wallet with lots of money in it, without any notice.

Andy says it is "easily reversible", and "temporary", and Andy says that he may return it to Bob only if Bob agrees that he would use the money in the wallet in a way that Andy thinks correct.

Again, my understanding is that it's ransom at best, and probably theft.

And lastly, it is not "the" ninja-mined stake - it is one of the ninja-mined stakes.

At this point, we all know that there are lots of other ninja-miners and lots of 22.2 witnesses (and Hive witnesses) are ninja-miners themselves or getting witness votes from ninja-mined stakes (blocktrades, freedom, berniesanders, etc.)

When I point this out, some people argued that Steem Inc. stakes are different as there is a "promise" that these stakes should be used in a certain way.

Okay, I think now we are ready to move to the next core issue.

2. If you think "public interview" is a "promise", you should blame blocktrades (or Hive) for breaking "promise" and lying first.

. 1. in 2016, Steemit, inc launched a PoW blockchain and ninja-mines 80% of the tokens telling the community they will be used for the community and not for Steemit, inc's own profit. There is no contract between them and the community, but see interviews, 2017 roadmap, etc

There are some users who kept saying that there was a "promise" or "social contract" of Steem Inc. As he notes, the only "evidence" is indirect anecdotal pieces from like 3 years ago.

. 14. Within less than a day of launching Hive, the list of accounts that will not be included in the airdrop is released. CoinDesk interview of Blocktrades says it will be ninjamined stake. Hive announcement says it will include those who support centralization.

This. If anyone thinks that "promise" regarding Steem Inc. is broken, he or she should attack Blocktrades(or Hive) too. He backtracked on what he publicly interviewed, in a couple of days.

and it seems that luke did not want to discuss more of "lies", but let me present them here again.

so this is the CoinDesk interview luke mentioned: Steem Community Plans Hostile Hard Fork to Flee Justin Sun’s Steemit

  • By the way, this CoinDesk article has been updated a bit from the initial one - but it still contains these "lies".

For this initial hard fork, one key thing will change: The tokens from the original development fund controlled by Steemit will not be carried over to the new chain. Everyone else's will be ported over.

Everyone with tokens on Steem will also have tokens on the new chain; that is, except for the Steemit wallets controlled by Sun’s Tron Foundation.

As we all know by now, the day after this interview Hive changed words: not going to airdrop to a select group of users by a random, subjective criteria which was not disclosed to most users, even including many Hive witnesses in advance.

Furthermore, they lied about the tokens from the "Steemit wallets". It clearly states even twice that Steemit tokens will "not be carried over". And what actually happened?

They took it to @steem.dao, along with the stakes from the 326 airdrop excluded users' stake, which is under control of the "community", or in fact basically the top Hive witnesses and whales.

This reply from Chanse Bradell summarizes what actually happened:

So you guys are taking the ninja-mined stake and using it? LOL.

Just to add, in Why I won’t be compromising with Justin Sun blocktrades wrote that the financial resource will come from "several prominent stakeholders."

No mention of using "confiscated" Steem Inc.'s tokens (and potentailly airdrop excluded tokens) in steem.dao account to "fund" Hive.

Does the community have the resources to launch a blockchain?

Yes, we do. It’s actually much easier for us to launch a chain, because of the many lessons we’ve had operating the Steem blockchain. And as far as financial resources go, several prominent Steem stakeholders have privately offered both computing resources and significant financial support, including my own company, BlockTrades. Even at this early stage, I’m utterly convinced we have sufficient support to launch and develop this new blockchain.

This article went much longer than I had initially guessed.

Let me wrap up quickly.

While I understand that Steem Inc (and/or Justin) has made lots of mistakes, I also believe that the 22.2 witnesses (or Hive witnesses) have done many wrongdoing (or mistakes), and it seems that they are the ones who attacked first.

When both sides change words(and make mistakes), I believe that the initiator is more responsible. That's why I am still skeptical about supporting Hive.

That being said, I also believe that unnecessary aggressive attitude and actions from both sides would not make things any better. I hope that there could be a positive development and we may find a nice solution.

To do that, I think understanding each other is the necessary first step - and luke's article would show how Hive users think and hopefully mine would show why Steem users are hesitant to support Hive.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

Congratulations. You are now responsible for a user losing >$30k of tokens. Join Steem - where the witnesses give a fuck about the safety of user funds.


  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

Well, if there wasn't a cause for him to seek a legal remedy, there certainly is now. This guy isn't even a witness, I'm still trying to figure out why they chose him in the first place!

Who are you? Do you know him or the receiving account?

It would be wise to hold any statement before the account owner himself states his opinion.

  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

The receiving account is inactive since 4 years.
He tried to change it to bittrex, which is visible in your node logs.
And he did give a statement.

You talking about wisdom is funny.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

He was well aware of the mistake and they prevented him from changing it through their soft fork. Surely you can't be this obstinate. Your thumbnail is lady justice?

Its a temporary measure so im sure he can work it out with the witnesses here. I believe this is a tactic that's been used before if i recall correctly? :)

It would be possible to fix this with a hard fork - as long as the receiving account doesn't sell it before. Let's see how long it takes them to code and deploy it.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

곰돌이가 @menerva님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.028을 보팅해서 $0.014을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7844번 $107.638을 보팅해서 $106.719을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

I hope you've got that anonymity locked down, you are now among those responsible for an actual steem investor losing a significant amount of funds. Funds that at no point did you ever have any legal claim to. Whether or not you agree with it, the community had at least some legal claim to the development fund Justin bought. You have nothing but a desire to prevent an investor from managing his investment. You are now liable for his losses. It's never too late to do the right and legally expedient thing.

It seems that you do not know what a legal claim is. Hope you may have a chance to learn someday.

  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

Okay genius, clearly by your actions you do.

Is this your public declaration that you feel you had the right to restrict access to the account of @darthknight, preventing him from changing his outbound routes, which he was well aware of the typo and trying to correct it?

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Declaring yourself the purveyor of constant whataboutery must be tiring. It's certainly tiring to read.

Lol i had to look up those fancy words you used as an answer rebuttal. Good for you smart sir.

곰돌이가 @menerva님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.031을 보팅해서 $0.011을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7845번 $107.669을 보팅해서 $106.730을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

Looks like @steemchiller got his answer of whether Justin Sun is a child or a businessman. Same applies to any and all of these scammer witnesses running their sockpuppets.

The blacklist had the same arrogant smell that one gets from US world sanctions.

I appreciate your reply. I will write a reply when I have enough time to answer it properly.

if i am not mistaken you are one of the accounts controlling @dev.supporters witness?

and you just publicly wrote one the blockchain that you think you are participating in "ransom at best, and probably theft."? so you think that freezing stake is theft and you are doing it?

Did i miss something? am i just stupid?

I doubt it is about right or wrong in this post. Matters are being weighed. No one is stupid in this case or can really be said to be

  ·  2 years ago (Edited)

i don't even think about right and wrong. he wrote that he thinks freezing peoples funds is "ransom at best, and probably theft" so he is, by his words, actively involved in ransom and theft.
So he knows that what he is doing is wrong (maybe even criminal) but he is doing it.
I am lost and don't understand that.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago (Edited)Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago (Edited)Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

I came here to read why you are skeptical about Hive.

I guess it's because you don't trust the Hive Aristocracy.

I'm doing what I feel is right and powering down both chains. Despite my namesake, I'm going all in on bitcoin.

Probably always should have been the strategy. I’m finally facing reality too.

You nailed it.

And after (or actually still ongoing) drama, now I am interested in bitcoin too.

Myself and a lot of friends have always been put-off by Steem because of Steemit stake being a constant threat over our head.


Maybe there's a bunch of clueless people that still didn't know about that and think everything has always been alright.

These people either had no stake or didn't do their due diligence. I don't know where you fit in there.

I've never been so bullish on Steem idea (Now called Hive) now that Steemit dumping, threats and empty promises are over.

Ps: I didn't read any of your post.

I didn't read this comment.

It seems we are in agreement as to there being no right side of the issue of the Hive fork, @glory7. Luke strikes me as a genuinely nice person yet is delusional, in my opinion, when it comes to his libratarian rationalizations of why v.22.2 was not theft.

Traditionally a blockchain fork has some major technological difference between the old version and the forked version. Take Bitcoin's block size debate during the BitcoinCore/BircoinCash fork. We did not see that with the Hive/Steem fork. Not even witness voting retention was addressed. Only a 30 day cool off period before stake could be used in witness voting to give the Cabal enough time to @null fuck any new investor that may threaten their power.

Moving STINC's stake to the SPS fund was more administrative in my opinion. The fork seemed more about butting heads and marking territory. The V.22.2 Cabal were more interested in saving their influence/power than saving STEEM or its community in my opinion. The hard fork was always an option and there did not seem to be any rush other than the witnesses in question would have their STEEM faucet turned off at least for a while.

Although the ratios have changed, @blocktrades and @freedom still control 7% of a watered down overall stake. Watered even more so by the airdrop blacklist which cut out any opposition that they may have found on the new Hive chain. Is it only me that finds it incredibly ironic that the fork was predominately instigated by an account which runs an exchange of sorts? 😎

The V.22.2 Cabal through witness voting circle jerking have secured their place in the top 20. @theycallmedan is a big player yet he always seemed to want what was best for the project although showing to be naive to follow the bunch of pirates down the rabbit hole.

Hive looks a lot like the old STEEM to me. Good luck getting some project through SPS that the Cabal does not support. Good luck making it to the top 20 without the Cabal's blessing.

My accounts on both HIVE and STEEM are powering down. The HIVE is being sold as it powers down. Still hanging on to the STEEM to see what may happen with atomic swaps. It sounded like such a positive things when first announced by Mr. Sun. It could bring even more scalability to an already scalable blockchain. How it was turned into a bad thing is beyond me as it is used in BitcoinCore's Lightning Network for example. Perhaps there is something that is beyond my present understanding.

Judging from the price of HIVE it appears that my predictions may be correct unfortunately.

It was an exciting 3+ years and a lot of connections made to some great folks. Maybe the OpenSeed project will find a way of bridging such blockchain chisms. Only time will answer that one.


This is phenomenal. That's all I can say.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. And I actually made a very similar prediction to yours regarding the price of hive. Time will tell.

In retrospect, I should have kept myself away from all these power struggle drama. Oh well... the positive side is that while I have seen so many absurd words/actions, I also have had a chance to talk to people like you who I did not know before, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining.

곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.011을 보팅해서 $0.031을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7847번 $107.701을 보팅해서 $106.782을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

This is the longest reply I've read

My @devcoin background has me used to being paid by word count. :)

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

I hope you don't think that the price of Hive vs Steem is accurate...

The price is what the price is. One needs their head examined to go up against a billionaire with an exchange of their own in a price war in crypto.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Very true. My contention is that both side performed miserably in this forked fiasco.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment
  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Rather than point fingers at anyone perhaps it would have been better to except that this stage of the DPoS experiment in Governance was a failure. For me at least Hive is a continuation of that failed experiment. Just look at this graph if you are one of those crying out about decentralization....


If one was not acting on behalf of their own self interests then perhaps a fork which started all existing accounts off as minnows may have been best for DPoS experimentation.

It will take a long time for DPoS to recover from this fiasco, if ever, in my opinion.

This idea is interesting, but its probably not realistic to wipe out people's steem that they bought. I wonder how you would correct for this.

. I wonder how you would correct for this.

Although an exact fix is not in my mind, on a general sense my feeling is that what is needed is a weighting of sorts to ones stake.

For example only, imagine that ones stake was weighted against how much value they are taking from the ecosystem. That would mean that those that posted with rewards turned off would have more power behind their stake than those set for 100% reward.

In this crazy example we can see that the status quo that often hold back sensible development like witness voting retention would be less likely to be halted due to self interests of those who stand to benifit by keeping things as they are.

There could also be code to remove witness voting from those accounts running witness nodes.

These are wild and crazy examples not presented in the hope of implementation but only to give an idea how DPoS governance might be made to work.

곰돌이가 @menerva님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.021을 보팅해서 $0.021을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7846번 $107.690을 보팅해서 $106.751을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

While I come at it at a slightly different view:

I also respect Luke, he wasn't here right before this all broke out and he bought the spin instead of understanding what actually happened.

Both sides have displayed why people wanted code based solutions, because humans are prone to emotion and make bad decisions when they are overcome with emotion.

DPOS under the current deployment has shown a weakness with only a 20 percent stake.

If the selling point is good vs evil.. centralized vs decentralized, I just don't find it compelling or honest based on results.

I agree with you that this is an excellent example that shows the necessity of written agreement (be it code, contract, law, whatever).

곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.018을 보팅해서 $0.024을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7849번 $107.726을 보팅해서 $106.841을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

@whatsup, over the last few weeks, I have seen a lot of your comments on random posts and with everyone else going nuts with, you have been making the most sense. I'm not sold on either fork and I wish there was third option without the ninja-mine or the unfair-airdrop, so we all start at zero, but I don't think that will happen.

Anyways, I know it's not always easy going against the grain, but I have enjoyed reading your take on all of this.

It's been really hard to go against the grain, but also very enlightening.

...I wish there was third option without the ninja-mine or the unfair-airdrop, so we all start at zero...

My suggestion had been that all existing accounts start as minnows.

he wasn't here right before this all broke out

That's not true. I have been here consistently since I joined in June of 2016. ngc has tried to argue I "left" for EOS but that is factually untrue and can be proven on chain with my activity and my running witness nodes.

I was directly involved in all of this since it started on February 14th. I was quote in both CoinDesk and Cointelegraph and retweeted by people like Peter Todd and Vitalik Buterin. To say I "bought the spin" is disingenuous and insulting.

I didn't mean to be insulting. I can understand feeling that though, as you have offered to "explain" this to me. :)

I do respect you, I saw no harm on you working on EOS as well. All experience is good experience.

Maybe I am wrong, but your visibility was different, and it looked to me like maybe you missed a few events.

I realize that could have been worded differently. Sorry.

I've been to the last three Steemfests, the last two with my family. I've shown up to many Discord events, though I don't attend them all because most of them don't accomplish much, IMO. It would be accurate to say my visibility has changed, but I've also posted on chain as to why that is. eosDAC, FIO, etc. Thanks for the apology. That's a rare thing these days with emotions high. I don't get annoyed all that much, but I do not like seeing facts misrepresented, especially when it comes to facts about me or my intentions. I've still got plenty of pride to work through to be bothered even less by that stuff. :)

No insult intended.

It was hardly an attack.

Thank you for your services, you being vocal has meant a lot to many of us. You're free to take a breather mate you deserve it.

Sweet Jesus, a gag is coming on.

Good thing you didnt say this before the fork, otherwise you wouldn't have gotten Hive tokens... its very dangerous to say things that powerful people dislike or disagree with.

Ha funny enough he was excluded. I wonder why.

Because he was part of a group using their stake irresponsibly in a childish attempt to hold the blockchain hostage for their own demands. Their stake was excluded for being used to attack Steem, just as the Stinc stake was.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's hilarious these children are upset they didn't get a Hive airdrop that they were not entitled to and did not deserve. They got the Steem they wanted and voted for. It's exactly what a spoiled child would scream: "Not fair!" while ignoring the fact that they got their way. It's as if they know Steem's days are numbered.

With nothing but children trying to run it, of course that's true.

Because he was part of a group using their stake irresponsibly in a childish attempt to hold the blockchain hostage for their own demands.

Are you talking about V.22.2? 😆

(Asked rhetorically)

Anything that you do is righteous and is an informed decision whereas anything that they do is childish, stupid, and immature. I wonder who the misinformed and arrogant person is. I normally start a conversation by assuming that the other person is respectful and smart. Seems like not everyone follows that rulebook.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Did you sell all your steem yet?

Waiting for the 30 year old child dictator to destroy Steem security with 3-day power downs, until then I've got some more weeks left.

In case you did not know yet, I was on the hive exclusion list.

Ya me too. Oh well. As they said, Im just glad those people who were so desperate to leave, left. Hopefully that helps them and helps Hive and Steem do their own thing.

Good luck to them I say.

Spot on. This is the reality folks. You may agree with one side over the other and are certainly entitled to your opinion, but also need to understand the facts. Blindingly trusting one side without the full information is the definition of a cult.

Like a divorce attorney once said, there are always 3 sides to a story. His side, her side, and the truth.

곰돌이가 @menerva님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.031을 보팅해서 $0.011을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7836번 $107.394을 보팅해서 $106.627을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

곰돌이가 @gomdory님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.030을 보팅해서 $0.012을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7885번 $108.621을 보팅해서 $107.458을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Exactly, none of the former Steem witnesses did that.

Are you aware of the airdrop blacklist?

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Even on Hive though, no balances were altered or removed, as an airdrop was used to distribute funds.

Using the term airdrop provides a nice narrative. Either it was a fork or it was not. If we set all accounts to minnows or something then your point is well taken. However to selectively choose how much happens to be airdropped coincidentally the exact same amount as was in their STEEM account is playing with semantics in my opinion. All water under the bridge now. Both sides performed miserably in this fiasco in my opinion and have done great damage to DPoS in their own quest for power and financial gain.

Thanks for sharing your thought.

We share the same feel and conclusion this is just sad for both parties.

Thank you. I still try to resolve this, but things are getting worse.

If someone thinks something is right or wrong just because he feels so, then I can assure you that the discussion will be useless, pointless, and unprofessional. It's a situation where people started basing their opinions regarding the past and current issues on convictions and feelings rather than facts, logic, and precise analysis.

At the end of the day, who has the right to define what's right or wrong? It's clearly pointless, people are from different cultures and they will believe in different things. That's why I've always been in favor of changes that will immunize the code against such conceptual relativities, but no wanted to listen, probably a clear indicator that the chain was already weaponized way before all this drama.

Thank you for the article @glory7,

I am sceptical too. They are frozen too much accounts. No plan for mass adoption. Steem has more exchanges than Hive on current moment.

No accounts are frozen on the Hive blockchain.

Right they are nullified not frozen.

Wrong again.

As a dev and witness you display a high degree of cluelessness. It’s baffling. Truly baffling.

Me thinks even you yourself couldn’t give us any sensible reason why we would vote you.

When I point this out, some people argued that Steem Inc. stakes are different as there is a "promise" that these stakes should be used in a certain way.

Everyone one of you are the same--old and new witnesses. You are all protecting your interest. You don't care about the blockchain. However, steem is doing it in the worst way possible--doing the things they accused the former witnesses of doing.

Okay, I think now we are ready to move to the next core issue

Why dismiss that? Because it doesn't align with your interest? What are the core issues really? Your witness sever is currently supporting the freezing of certain accounts? What makes you any different? Didn't steemit say they won't freeze any account? What are they doing now? What are you doing now?

When both sides change words(and make mistakes), I believe that the initiator is more responsible. That's why I am still skeptical about supporting Hive.

So if I catch two people stealing the first to steal is guilty while the second is not? The premise of this logic is faulty. Since you don't acknowledge the promise on the steemit stake, there is not point having this discussion because it is the core issue here--what led to everything. Plus I won't quickly forget the insane demands made by the Korean community, but hey that's not important right? The fact that you or anyone here thinks they have the moral high ground is comical because you're clearly becoming the things/people you hate

That being said, I also believe that unnecessary aggressive attitude and actions from both sides would not make things any better. I hope that there could be a positive development and we may find a nice solution.

This is like calling someone a thief when you're stealing as well. Only to neutralize things with 'okay, okay what's done is done' it doesn't work that way.

There is no way forward for both blockchains. Those who went to leave should. Those who come to criticize steem/hive should (but with facts) and should be ready for the backlash.